Chuck,

For some reason, Arnold cannot get onto the site, but he has asked me to post the following response:

You have mentioned two separate issues, which are valid issues but I would like deal with them one at a time.

1. The "time" it took to get there

and

2. Whether or not Paul actually made it to Pentecost

I realize we have dealt with this subject using criteria like "mileage" and "travel speed", etc... However, I would like to take this new approach to see whether or not you can agree with the math. Circumstances, mileage, speed, whether and the like can be argued, but one cannot argue with mathematical facts.

The passage CONCLUSIVELY shows a total of at least 33 "no traveling" days and at least 23 "traveling" days, totaling at least 56 days. If you can agree with this, we can move on to whether or not Paul actually made it to Pentcost. If you cannot agree with this, then please demonstrate what is wrong with the math I have presented in my post. You are a mathematician so I would think you might prefer to deal with this issue on a mathematical basis which is more concrete than abstract debates over circumstances. I await your response.

_________________
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

Hi Eriq+Arnold,

I probably shouldn't have even posted, since i don't have the time to repeat that exhausting study of every detail of Paul's journey. I merely posted what i did to remind folks that it had been done before, and we arrived at 2 different conclusions. The whole thing involved "mathematical facts", so there's no "new approach". Mileage & speed are obviously mathematical, while circumstances & weather must be translated to math in order to be factored into the discussion.

I will rescind the phrase "proved CONSLUSIVELY", which i only used because Arnold [mis]uses it all the time. I'll just say that we "SHOWED" the 2 things mentioned. Anyone who is concerned about the outcome of Paul's journey can do their own study and come to their own conclusion, and that'll be OK with me.My calculations of the # of travel & non-travel days are recorded in the other forum, which is no longer accessible, so i guess i'll just drop it. I'm not deliberately putting you guys off, honestly, i just don't have the time or inclination to repeat such a time-consuming effort. I stand by my previous calculations, whatever they may have been.

_________________
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

THIS IS BROTHER ARNOLD posting under Brother Erick’s name.

Shalom All,

Could someone please verify my math concerning apostle Paul’s journey to Jerusalem from Philiphi to keep Pentecost.

I Asked Brother Chuck to verify my math because I have a new approach which conclusively proves the traditional 50 day count to Pentecost is IMPOSSIBLE if my math is correct and Paul did not break his journey to Jerusalem.

I have already done the work, I would just like to have someone to verify it. If the apostle Paul made it to Jerusalem for Pentecost and it was beyond the traditional 50 day count, this conclusively proves a later Pentecost. In other words Leviticus 23:16 should be understood to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath instead of the wave sheaf. I have pinpointed 33 AT LEAST 33 no traveling days and 23 at least 23 days that they were traveling which is a total of 56 days if my math is right in my understanding of the Scriptures. Here it is.

We know they left Philiphi after the day’s of Unleavened Bread according Acts 20:6 and for those who count from the 16th there will be at least 6 no traveling days during the 50 day count and the count is still going on. For those who count from the traditional Sabbath that falls within the days of Unleavened Bread can shave off 1 day or 2 depending on if it was a 29 or 30 day month.

In Acts 20:6 you also have another 7 day stay at Troas bringing the total to 13 NO TRAVEL days.

In Acts 20:16—21:1 you have at least another 3 NO TRAVEL days a total of 16 NO TRAVEL DAYS.

In Acts 21:4 there are 7 more NO TRAVEL DAYS a total of 23.

In Acts 21:7 you have 1 more, a total of 24 NO TRAVEL DAYS.

In Acts 21:10 we have an unspecified number of NO TRAVEL DAYS which is simply called MANY DAYS which means “more in quantity” in the Greek and I believe it is talking about more than all the days that he has just listed thus far put together. Paul is obviously now ahead of schedule and does not have to depend on the weather or catching ships etc. and the rest of the journey is across landTo be generous I’ve only allowed it to mean 8 even though I believe it was more. The author remembered two 7 days stay but stayed here more days than he could remember, perhaps the 15 or 20 or more. Everywhere else the Greek word is mentioned in Scripture it means more than the 8 days that I allowed. Here’s the definition.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4119. pleion

 pleion pli-own pleion pli'-on, or pleon pleh'-on
comparative of 4183; more in quantity, number, or quality; also (in plural) the major portion:--X above, + exceed, more excellent, further, (very) great(-er), long(-er), (very) many, greater (more) part, + yet but.
We now have 24 plus 8 which equals 32 NO TRAVEL DAYS. If you subtracted 6 days and said MANY DAYS means two days you could make the math work but how anyone could argue with a clear conscience that 2 days is MAINLY DAYS when all they have an option to understand Leviticus 23:16 as written.

In Acts 21:17 – 30 etc. You have at least 8 more NO TRAVEL DAYS and they are still purifying themselves etc, and getting ready for Pentecost, but I’ve only added 1 more day, a total of 33 NO TRAVEL DAYS.

Before I list the 23 TRAVEL DAYS totaling 56 days, can anyone shave off any of the NO TRAVEL DAYS thus far?

_________________
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

I didn't see where the unspecified # of "more days" was given, but i remember disagreeing on the meaning of "more days" in the previous discussion. I understood it to mean simply "additional days", or as few as 2.

So i can concur that the math is probably correct, but that doesn't matter, because since the numbers that Arnold inputs to the math are different from mine, the results of the math will obviously be different.

Regarding Arnold's being unable to get on the site, maybe i could help.
Exactly what is he doing, and what error message, if any, is he getting?

_________________
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

THIS IS BROTHER ARNOLD posting under Brother Erick’s name.

Shalom Brother Chuck and All,

I will list the reasons that no one would normally understand MANY DAYS as to mean only 2 days especially after reading a running narrative where the author gives an account of the number of days and says things like, we stayed or tarried there 7 days and at another place we tarried 7 days and at this other city we tarried 1 day with the brethren and at this city where the virgins were we tarried there MANY DAYS.

In the setting the above, I do not believe any scholar or anybody in the world would understand MANY DAYS to be as little as 2 days. The Greek word “many” actually means more in quantity or number, or the major portion of the days.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4119. pleion

 pleion pli-own pleion pli'-on, or pleon pleh'-on
comparative of 4183; more in quantity, number, or quality; also (in plural) the major portion:--X above, + exceed, more excellent, further, (very) great(-er), long(-er), (very) many, greater (more) part, + yet
The Greek word is used 7 other times in the New Testament and no scholar or anyone would dare argue that any of them would suggest as little as 2 days.

Luke 11:53 “provoke him to speak many things”

Acts 2:40 “with many other words did he testify”

Acts 13:31 “and he was seen many days of them”

Acts 21:10 “as we tarried there MANY days”

Acts 24:17 “after many years I came to bring”

Acts 25:14 “when they had been there many days”

Acts 27:20 “no stars in many days appeared” and

Acts 28:20 “came many to him into his lodging”

You see from the above Scriptures where the word is used, it does not suggest as few as 2 days. Can anyone honestly say that any of the above verses suggest as few as 2 days? See again the definition of the word.

Side note: Notice also the word “as” in the verse in question. It teaches “as” we tarried there MANY days a prophet came down from Judaea while they were there many days and prophesied. It would have took at least several days for the prophet to receive word that Paul was at the house of the evangelist and make the trip from Judaea back down to where he was. This would take a few days from Judaea to Caesarea even if no one traveled up to Jerusalem and told the prophet he was there.

At any rate there is no other place in Scripture that suggests the word can mean as little as 2 days as the above verses prove. The only possible reason I can see someone would interpret many days to be only a few days is if they thought they only had 50 days in which to reach Jerusalem.

Once we get this out of the way and everyone agrees the Scripture suggests they were at the evangelists house for a good number of days most likely more than the ones that has already been enumerated in the narrative, we can then move on and show that either Paul did not make it to Jerusalem or it was beyond the traditional count. I can conclusively prove it was the later and after reading the above Scripture and my explanation is there anyone that does not concede that they tarried many days/more in quantity or number than 2 or 3 days?

The problem I am having is I forgot my password.

_________________
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

Hi Arnold, Try clicking on the link right below Password, which says "I forgot my password", and follow whatever instructions come up.
If that doesn't work, get Eriq to send a message to Greg and see if he can help.

As for the word pleion, while it is rendered "many" 12 times (including all the verses you quoted), it is rendered "more" 23 times, and in fact in Mark 12:43, it refers to exactly 2 (the widow's 2 mites). I'll leave it to you to look up the other 22 verses, because as i said, i have no intention of digging up this "dead horse" and beating it to death again. If you're satisfied with what you think is correct, it's not up to me to "judge another man's servant".

_________________
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

THIS IS BROTHER ARNOLD used in Brother Erick’s password.


Shalom Brother Chuck,

You wrote,

“As for the word pleion, while it is rendered "many" 12 times (including all the verses you quoted), it is rendered "more" 23 times, and in fact in Mark 12:43, it refers to exactly 2 (the widow's 2 mites).”

RESPONSE; the word “pleion /more” in Mark 12:43 IS NOT referring to the 2 mites as you suggest but is referring to “MORE” than all the others had cast into the treasury and this fits my argument and is in harmony with all the other places it is mentioned.


Mr 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast “more” in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

Even though she cast in 2 mites the word “more” is referring to the “much” that the others cast in NOT her 2 mites.

I challenge you to present even one of the 23 plus that you mentioned that would even suggest two or three. The above was probably your strongest one which in reality fits my understanding. I will await your answer.

Thanks for the tip about the password.

_________________
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

Hi Brother Chuck,

Leaving the many days at Caesarea debate for a moment. Which day would you say is Pentecost in the following verses?
Ac 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. (did Paul and company come into Jerusalem on the day of Pentecostget there just in the nick of time?(
Ac 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. (Was this next day Pentecost?(
Ac 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: (could these zealous believing Jews be gathered in early for Pentecost?(
Ac 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Ac 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. (could Pentecost still be in the future?(
Ac 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. (Was it custom for the people go up early for purification before Pentecost or after?(
Ac 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Ac 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. (was this “next day” Pentecost?(
Ac 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, (has Pentecost occurred yet? If so, why had not the Jews from Asia, which is about 600 miles away, and all the people, started back home yet but was still hanging around Jerusalem a week or so later?

My comment in parentheses does not matter much but which of the above days was Pentecost in your estimation?

_________________
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

I’m back thanks everyone and I don’t see how I will forget this password, thanks again. Here’s another Messianic Group going solar lunar check it out http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_ne ... bat&Type=1

_________________
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

Hi Arnold,

Glad to see you got logged back on. Too bad about Y.A.T.I.

I knew you'd argue about the "widow's mites". It was a spiritual comparison anyway; i just threw it in to give you something to do.

But mathematically, if "2 mites" was "more" than the others, then the others must have cast in "less" than 2 mites (spiritual worth). Suppose the worth of their offerings was 1/2 mite, then the widow's "more" would equal 1.5 mites. And even if their offerings were worth zero, the widow's "more" would only be 2, which is the max it could be.

You seem to have forgotten much of the previous discussion on EliYahs forum. The 2nd point where we differed is whether Paul actually made it by Pentecost. Larry & i only showed how he could have made it. My conclusion was that the Scripture simply doesn't say whether he made it or not. So your questions about which day was Pentecost after Paul's arrival in Jerusalem are unanswerable from my perspective. It could be any of the days you mentioned, or it could have already passed before they arrived.

_________________
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

Shalom Brother Chuck,

You wrote,

I knew you'd argue about the "widow's mites". It was a spiritual comparison anyway; i just threw it in to give you something to do.

RESPONSE; I agree it was a spiritual analogy and you knew I would catch it but the way you put it was so cunning and crafty the unsuspecting might not catchy it. I’ve caught you again in the following where you continue trying to equate it with the natural two mites and less than two mites after just admitting it was spiritual and in reality the spiritual aspect shows that these people cast MANY/much into the treasury but spiritually speaking see cast in more than all of them with her two mites.

You wrote,

“But mathematically, if "2 mites" was "more" than the others, then the others must have cast in "less" than 2 mites (spiritual worth).”

RESPONSE; how crafty and cunning of you to suggest this and then go on and try to keep a small number on it in order to support your MANY DAYS at the evangelists house as being two days.

You wrote,

“Suppose the worth of their offerings was 1/2 mite, then the widow's "more" would equal 1.5 mites. And even if their offerings were worth zero, the widow's "more" would only be 2, which is the max it could be.”

RESPONSE; where or who did you learn all this cunning craftiness from?

The bottom line is MANY DAYS was not meant to mean two days.

_________________
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

Hi Arnold,

I don't remember for sure, but i think i learned fractions & decimals around the 4th or 5th grade; i was studying an algebra book in the 6th grade (extra curricular). But as far as putting it into practical use, the most recent major thing that forced me to have to use all that mathematical "cunning & craftiness" has been the 5 or more years of discussions with YOU , and other lunarists and double Pentecostians as well.The bottom line is here are the verses where "pleion" is rendered "MORE". I have drawn my conclusions, and you may look through them and draw yours; and if we conclude differently, SO BE IT...

Mt 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than <4119> meat, and the body than raiment?
Mt 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more <4119>; and they likewise received every man a penny.
Mt 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more <4119> than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more <4119> than twelve legions of angels?
Mr 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more <4119> than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mr 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more <4119> in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Lu 3:13 And he said unto them, Exact no more <4119> than that which is appointed you.
Lu 9:13 But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they said, We have no more <4119> but five loaves and two fishes; except we should go and buy meat for all this people.
Lu 12:23 The life is more <4119> than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
Lu 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than <4119> they all:
Joh 4:1 When therefore the Master knew how the Pharisees had heard that Yahshua made and baptized more <4119> disciples than John,
Joh 4:41 And many more <4119> believed because of his own word;
Joh 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When the Messiah cometh, will he do more <4119> miracles than these which this man hath done?
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more <4119> fruit.
Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Yahshua saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than <4119> these? He saith unto him, Yea, Master; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
Ac 19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part <4119> knew not wherefore they were come together.
Ac 23:13 And they were more than <4119> forty which had made this conspiracy.
Ac 23:21 But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than <4119> forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath, that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee.
Ac 25:6 And when he had tarried among them more <4119> than ten days, he went down unto Caesarea; and the next day sitting on the judgment seat commanded Paul to be brought.
Ac 27:12 And because the haven was not commodious to winter in, the more part <4119> advised to depart thence also, if by any means they might attain to Phenice, and there to winter; which is an haven of Crete, and lieth toward the south west and north west.
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more <4119>.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more <4119> ungodliness.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more <4119> glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more <4119> honour than the house.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto [YHWH] a more excellent <4119> sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Re 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than <4119> the first.

_________________
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

My thread refuting a fourth-month Pentecost remains unaddressed. There are heads buried in the sand here. The fourth-month Pentecost can and will never be proven, it will always be refuted, and the belief in it will be scattered to the wind and will be of no historical or religious significance.

Finis,
L_L

THE FOLLOWING SHOWS THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF A THIRD MONTH PENTECOST 50 DAYS AFTER THE WAVE SHEAF!

Over the years I have given many infallible proofs from Scripture and even nature itself where Pentecost is beyond the traditional 50 day count but recently I discovered another possible evidence which disproves the traditional Pentecost theory of numbering 1 day AFTER the seventh Sabbath instead of 50 days after the seventh Sabbath according to Leviticus 23:16, remember Pentecost means 50 not 1.

At any rate the following reveals that there were at least 12 days during which the apostles did not see him after his resurrection and when you add these 12 days to the 40 days that they did see him is a total of 52 days which is beyond the traditional Pentecost count and they still had to go to Jerusalem and tarry for the Holy Spirit not many days hence or after that.

When we read Ac 13:30 “But God raised him from the dead:” and
Ac 13:31 “And he was seen MANY DAYS of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.” We understand that he was seen MANY DAYS and when we read Acts 1:3 it tells us that the MANY DAYS is 40. One place that says he was beaten with MANY STRIPES in another place it says 40 stripes save one.

Let’s turn to Acts 1:3, and zero in on the verse and see if we can understand what it is actually saying. Acts 1:3 says, “to “whom” also He showed himself alive “after” his passion/sufferings by many infallible proofs, being “seen of them” 40 days, “and” speaking of things pertaining to the kingdom of the Almighty:”
We will now have a question and answer session before I prejudice your minds too much with what I believe.
Did he really show himself alive by many infallible proofs, being seen of them 40 days? In other words was He seen of them 40 days or was the showing himself alive by many infallible proofs referring to being seen of them several times DURING 40 days?
What were the infallible proofs of His being alive? Was it being seen 40 days or sightings or several sightings during a 40 day period?
It teaches he showed himself alive “after” his sufferings by “many” infallible proofs. How did He do that? How did he show himself alive and what were the infallible proofs? Which is more of an infallible proof, being seen several times during 40 days or 40 separate conclusive sightings of showing himself alive?
To whom did he show himself alive by these many infallible proofs?

Is Acts 1:3 specifically speaking of the apostles whom He had chosen, when it says “being seen of THEM” 40 days?
Did the apostles see Him alive MANY or MORE in number of times than anyone else???
The Greek words for “many” means more in quantity or more in number and if being seen of THEM 40 days is SPECIFICALLY referring to the apostles whom he had chosen, it will add more days because we know from Scripture that the women saw him a day before the apostles saw him, assuming the first day of the week ends at evening when the apostles were gathered and the doors being shut in fear of the Jews when he appeared to the apostles for the first day of the 40 days.
Acts 1:3 specifically teaches He was seen 40 days of the apostles WHOM HE HAD CHOSEN and John 20:19 through 20:14 conclusively shows that He was not seen of the apostles during at least 12 or 13 days and when we add the 40 days that he was seen of the apostles to the 12 or 13 days he was not seen of them it comes to a total of 52 or 53 days, not to mention the days that they were to tarry in Jerusalem until they were baptized with the Holy Spirit NOT MANY days hence, which had to be at least 2 more days, totaling 54 days. This is conclusive proof that the true feast of Pentecost is beyond the traditional 50 day count if my interpretation of these verses is true.
It is easy to count the conclusive days that he was not seen of the apostles and add them to the days that he was seen of the apostles. I will now show how you can prove the days or times he was not seen. The first day in which he was seen of the apostles was the SECOND DAY after his resurrection at the close of the first day of the week at evening/17th which means he was not seen by the apostles during the first day after the resurrection. He was seen first of the women on the first day of the week, John 20:1 through 18 and then on the same first day of the week at evening, verse 19 which is actually the beginning of the second day of the week/17th to those of us who end the day at evening and this was the FIRST DAY of the 40 days that he showed himself alive to the apostles as Acts 1:3 clearly says. The apostle Thomas was not with them at this time, verse 24 but EIGHT DAYS later he showed himself alive the SECOND TIME to the apostles whom he had chosen and Thomas was with them, verse 26. He was not seen of them DURING THE SEVEN DAYS before the eighth day that he appeared to them the second time. This is a TOTAL OF EIGHT DAYS so far and only TWO times or infallible proofs of showing himself alive. The THIRD DAY of the 40 days or time he showed himself alive or was seen of the apostles was at the sea of Galilee/Tiberias which is a FOUR DAYS journey from Jerusalem according to several web searches on distance’s and it does not say how many days later it was but even if they immediately went straight to the sea without going home etc, and went fishing immediately after traveling the four days journey it was still the next morning that he appeared or showed himself alive to the apostles for the THIRD TIME or third day of the 40 days that he was seen of them, verse 4. The map in the back up my Bible shows the trip to be about 70 miles. At any rate this is a total of at least 12 DAYS that he was NOT seen of the apostles in addition to the 40 days that he was seen or showed himself alive to the apostles. It was actually the NEXT MORNING that the third appearance took place after they fished through the night according to verse 4 therefore we have a total of 12 conclusive days in which he was not seen of the apostles after his resurrection and when you add this to the 40 days that he showed himself alive to them is a total of 52 days. And reading on, John 21:14 actually says “this is now the THIRD TIME that the Messiah showed himself (ALIVE) to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead” or “showed himself alive”. i.e. these 3 appearances where he showed himself alive is 3 of the many/40 infallible proofs or showing himself alive spoken of in Acts 1:3 where it says,
Ac 1:3 “To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, “being” seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of YHWH:”
The “whom” and “them” is SPECIFICALLY referring to the apostles and the 40 days of appearances to them are the many infallible proofs or Certainty’s. Notice he not only showed himself alive after the resurrection but spoke to them things pertaining to the kingdom.

At any rate when you add 12 and 40 together it is a total of 52 days which is beyond the traditional Pentecost and they still have to go to Jerusalem and wait for the promise which was to be not many days hence. This has to be at least two more days making a total of 54 days, which makes the traditional 50 day from the wave sheaf Pentecost impossible. This shows that we are to number the 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath instead of 50 days after the wave sheaf according to Leviticus 23:16. This is the only way to harmonize these Scriptures along with MANY others.but
The Book of Acts can cause us to think that they returned and went into the upper room and stayed there for several days until the Holy Spirit was poured out but the gospel of Luke says they returned to Jerusalem and were continually in the temple praising and blessing the Almighty, Luke 24:53. In other words they may have went straight to the upper room but not to receive the Holy Spirit at that time according to Luke’s Gospel. And when they did receive the Holy Spirit in the upper room they were scattered abroad and not continually in the temple at Jerusalem. Therefore they could have been weeks of tarrying at Jerusalem before they went into the upper room to receive the Holy Spirit. There could have been weeks before he appeared to them the third time at the Sea of Galilee etc. we do not know but we do know from the above Scriptures that it was above the traditional 50 day count before the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost.
Again, to those of us to end the day at evening, we know that after the resurrection he was first seen of the women and was not seen by the apostles until AFTER the first day at evening. i.e. the 16th day at evening which is the beginning of the 17th day of the first month same as the 7 days of unleavened bread begins on the 14th day at evening which is the beginning of the 15th and the Day of Atonement is on the 9th day at evening which is the beginning of the 10th. Therefore the same first day at evening/16th is the second day/17th. Therefore the 40 days were referring to days in which He SPECIFICALLY showed himself alive to the apostles after the resurrection as Acts 1:3 states, “being seen of them/the apostles 40 days”. Either He was seen of the apostles 40 days or he was not. We know from the above that he was not seen of them 40 days in a row and there were days that he was not seen of them at all.
Side note: The traditional count always consist of 50 days therefore you would not have to count to Pentecost because it would always be on the same day. The scriptural Pentecost is 101 or 102 days dependent on whether there is a one or two days new moon and therefore you have to count for it because it does not always fall out on the day next to the Sabbath as indicated by Josephus. If this did not happen it would be on a fixed date same as the other two feast and there would be no need to count to Pentecost, you would know what date it is every year, especially for those who correctly begin the count from the 16th. And those who begin the count from the Morrow after the traditional Sabbath that falls within the days of unleavened bread will always know it to be on a Sunday and they will not have to count either. The true Pentecost keepers will have to count even if they calculate ahead.
The 40 days that He was seen or showed himself alive to the apostles were infallible proofs of his resurrection. i.e. being seen so many times. He was seen of them on 40 different occasions from the time of his resurrection to his ascension into the heavens. If Acts 1:3 is not referring to the number of times he was seen by the apostles as proofs of his resurrection and only referring to a number of days from the time of his resurrection would not be proofs. i.e. just saying he was alive for a distance of 40 days before he ascended up and not being seen of the apostles 40 different days is not as much proof. His appearing to the apostles on 40 different days or occasions was the infallible proofs of how he showed himself alive.
This is not speaking of a distance of 40 days to show proof of his being alive but the number of times he appeared to the apostles and spoke to them things pertaining to the kingdom.
Joh 20:16 the Messiah saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 the Messiah saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G-d, and your G-d.
Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Master, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came the Messiah and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
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Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when the Messiah came.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came the Messiah, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 21:1 After these things the Messiah shewed himself “again” to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
Joh 21:14 “This is now the “third time” that the Messiah shewed himself (ALIVE) to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.”
Ac 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that the Messiah began both to do and teach,
Ac 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Ac 1:3 To whom also he “shewed himself alive” after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Ac 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Definition of INFALLIBLE PROOFS
Strong's Greek Dictionary
5039. tekmerion
 tekmerion tek-may'-ree-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of tekmar (a goal or fixed limit); a token (as defining a fact), i.e. criterion [or/decisive factor/reason/standard] of certainty:--infallible proof.

The TOKEN or Defining a fact was Him being seen a NUMBER of days or times by the apostles whom He had chosen, not a space of time. Infallible proofs must meet certain criteria i.e. a criterion i.e. care of certainty which equals a decisive factor of him being seen ALIVE after the crucifixion/passion 40 days or times by the apostles. The apostles seen him more in number of times or days than anyone else.
He was seen more in number of times or days by the apostles than anyone else.

Side note: I believe the word “and” is a conjunctive word tying the speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom to the being seen of them 40 days. i.e. speaking the things pertaining to the kingdom during the 40 days of his appearing to them. I believe 40 days is significant same as the 40 days the Almighty taught Moses in the Mount just before the law was given to Moses on the day of Pentecost which was at the end of 40 days and 40 nights, Deuteronomy 9:11 and Exodus 31:18, the Messiah specifically taught his disciples for the same number of days before Pentecost. Perhaps I will finish this later and add a chapter to my Pentecost book because I have more to say on the subject.

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Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

Shalom Chuck,



I’m glad to see you have acknowledged a “remote” possibility. So if we can go with that “remote” possibility I would like to present Scriptural evidence that the 50 days is beyond the 7 Sabbaths complete.

Exo 19:1 In the third month after the children of Yisra’ĕl had come out of the land of Mitsrayim, on this day they came to the Wilderness of Sinai.

First of all I’m not going to claim to understand everything about these Scriptures from Shemoth chapters 19-24. According to Shemoth 19:1 it would seem because of the wording that the children of Yisra’el had come to the wilderness on the same day – the fifteenth – after leaving Mitsrayim/Ramses. Actually, they left Ramses on the 15th and they left the land of Mitsrayim at the crossing of the Sea of Reeds, so technically there are two times that they left Mitsrayim.

So if 19:1 is referring to the day they left Ramses (on the 15th day of the 1st moon) we could assume that this is speaking of the 15th day of the third moon. Obviously they are calculating by the moon/months. Now from the 15th of the first month to the 15th of the third month is 8 weeks or one complete month of 29 or 30 days and two half months of 15 days. Now remember when we are counting months we are also counting new moon days. Now on a continual count 8 weeks equals 56 days; which is beyond the 50 day count. For the lunar count you start with the fifteenth day of the first month to the end of the first month; depending on how long the month itself is, it would be either 14 or 15 days to get to the beginning of the second month. The second month would be 29 or 30 days long and from the beginning of the third month to the 15th is 15 days. So we don’t know how long the first or second month was, so we’ll just say out of conjecture that the first month was 29 days and the second month is 30 days. So that would be 14 + 30 + 15 = 59. Now according to the month count even if there were back to back 29 day months that is still 8 days beyond the 50 day count.

It has been suggested that when they came to the wilderness it was the first day of the third month; 14 + 30 + 1= 45 days – plus two days of being set-apart and Yahuah coming down on the third day; so that would be 14 + 30 + 1 + 3 = 48 days. And if the first month and the second month both had thirty days in them that would be 15 + 30 + 1 + 3 = 49. Which is still one day shy of the 50th day. Technically if you count the first day of the month as the first day of setting them apart then you would have to subtract a day which equals 48. Also notice in the count that we did give the benefit of the doubt for two 30-day months. This math does not work either; although, it is very much closer.

But there is a 50-day count mentioned in the Scriptures. This 50-day count begins from the first day that they are to be set-apart.

Exo 19:10-11
10 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “Go to the people and set them apart today and tomorrow. And they shall wash their garments,
11 and shall be prepared by the third day. For on the third day יהוה shall come down upon Mount Sinai before the eyes of all the people.

Here we can see three days from the time they are to be set-apart to the time Yahuah comes down upon the mountain.

Exo 24:12-18
12 And יהוה said to Mosheh, “Come up to Me on the mountain and be there, while I give you tablets of stone, and the Torah and the command which I have written, to teach them.”
13 And Mosheh arose with his assistant Yehoshua, and Mosheh went up to the mountain of Elohim.
14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we come back to you. And see, Aharon and Hur are with you. Whoever has matters, let him go to them.”
15 And Mosheh went up into the mountain, and a cloud covered the mountain.
16 And the esteem of יהוה dwelt on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days. And on the seventh day He called to Mosheh out of the midst of the cloud.
17 And the appearance of the esteem of יהוה was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain, before the eyes of the children of Yisra’ĕl.
18 And Mosheh went into the midst of the cloud and went up into the mountain. And it came to be that Mosheh was on the mountain forty days and forty nights.

We see Mosheh went up to the mount with his assistant Yehoshua and the elders and he told the elders to wait here for us until we come back to you. Notice the cloud covered the mountain for six days and on the 7th day Yahuah called Mosheh and he went into the midst of the cloud and was there 40 days and 40 nights.

We know the people were set-apart for three days and Yahuah came down upon the mountain and started speaking the commands. But remember the people did not want to hear HIM and told Mosheh we hear you. After that point, Yahuah quit speaking in their presence and gave the rest of the laws through Mosheh to give back to the people. So in essence, the people rejected hearing Yahuah directly. But the point is, we have an exact 50-day count from the time the people were to be set-apart until the time Mosheh came down off the mountain after the 40 days and 40 nights. Of course, we know what happened when he came down. He found leaven in the camp; thereby throwing the two loaves of the commandments to the ground. Oh, I meant tablets…. It is rather interesting that the wheat crop is presented in the form of two leavened loaves. And we know what agent the leaven represents.

Anyway, three days to be set-apart and Yahuah speaking to the people, seven days Mosheh, Aaron, Nadab, Yehoshua, the seventy elders were on the mount and then another 40 days that Mosheh went into the midst of the cloud and went up into the mountain. 3 + 7 + 40 = 50 The day that Mosheh came down and found the children of Yisra’el whoring with their calf was the 50th day from the time that Yahuah called Yisra’el to be set-apart and be prepared by the third day. This is a 50-day count that is recognizable as such and this takes place after the 7 Sabbaths complete.

Greg

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Compassion boasts over judgment.