In Defence of Sha'ul

[Watchman555]

Greetings in the Name of Yahusha,

Some people claim that Sha’ul was not an emissary because Yahusha never said so. They say he was a “self-appointedâ€

[BrotherArnold]

I have read the teaching that Paul was a false Apostle and saw how rediclous it is, in light of what is written.

See Acts 13:2-4 where it says the Holy Spirit "sent" Paul. I know they say luke was Paul's buddy etc.

Brother Arnold

[kathybyers2000]

But aren't there only twelve tribes and twelve seats around the throne? or perhaps Apostle is a much more vast title and is not as set-apart as originally believed it to be. Who appointed him as an apostle and where is that recorded in the word? I see that Yahushua appointed the original twelve and when one fell away the others came together and cast lots allowing the appointment of the new number twelve to fall on YHWH, but I find nowhere in scripture where there is reference to thirteen (or more) apostles.

It is also worth noting that Luke was not an apostle, but rather a physician who became secretary to paul. I don't say that there are not some of Pauls writings (and Lukes) that I am able to find much truth in, however, there are others that do not speak according to the law and the testimony and yet are still deemed scripture. This is where it causes many to stumble (all of christianity) and many will say that Paul is only misunderstood. However, after reviewing and reviewing this topic for two years now I am able to see clearly that his purpose and his calling was not as an apostle to YHWH under Yahushua, but an apostle to the gentiles to show grace and mercy in returning back to YHWH. I am quickly (and more easily) able to believe and obey the Word of YHWH and the testimony that speaks according to all the words therein without Pauls writings to contend with - surely this is not wrong?!?

shalom,

Kathy

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom Sister Kathy,

Do you believe in Apostles today?

Have you read John Cardoro's artical, Defense of the Apostle Paul?

Brother Arnold

[eriqbenel]

But aren't there only twelve tribes and twelve seats around the throne? or perhaps Apostle is a much more vast title and is not as set-apart as originally believed it to be. Who appointed him as an apostle and where is that recorded in the word? I see that Yahushua appointed the original twelve and when one fell away the others came together and cast lots allowing the appointment of the new number twelve to fall on YHWH, but I find nowhere in scripture where there is reference to thirteen (or more) apostles.

It is also worth noting that Luke was not an apostle, but rather a physician who became secretary to paul. I don't say that there are not some of Pauls writings (and Lukes) that I am able to find much truth in, however, there are others that do not speak according to the law and the testimony and yet are still deemed scripture. This is where it causes many to stumble (all of christianity) and many will say that Paul is only misunderstood. However, after reviewing and reviewing this topic for two years now I am able to see clearly that his purpose and his calling was not as an apostle to YHWH under Yahushua, but an apostle to the gentiles to show grace and mercy in returning back to YHWH. I am quickly (and more easily) able to believe and obey the Word of YHWH and the testimony that speaks according to all the words therein without Pauls writings to contend with - surely this is not wrong?!?

shalom,

Kathy

Shalom Sister,

Sha'ul's call to "Apostle-ship" was recorded in Scripture on the road to Damascus. This records it was "clearly" Y'shua who called him.

As far as the "casting lots" gathering to replace Yudas, let me say this. Not ONE of the Apostles chose themselves. Not ONE. All of them were chosen by the Messiah Himself... directly.

"..you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you..."

Therefore, I believe that even though they had good intentions, Kepha and the others were "out of line" when they "cast lots" for the replacment. One of the twelve MUST be chosen by Messiah to be authentic. Sha'ul WAS chosen DIRECTLY by Messiah.

You have obviously put some time into this issue, but with all due respect, my sister, if you believe that Sha'ul speaks against the Torah in any of his writings, then you HAVE "misunderstood" them. If you wish to point them out, we would be delighted to discuss them with you, point by point.

I am confident that we can help clarify some of the confusion about Sha'ul's committment to Torah.

Finally, I will say this. The term "gentiles" referred to in the Messianic Scriptures do NOT necessarily refer to "non-Yisraelites", but rather to "lost Yisraelites" scattered among the "nations", which is what "gentiles" really means. That may come as a surprise to some, but understanding this will be one step in understanding why Sha'ul would not, and could not advise them to shy away from the Torah.

[kathybyers2000]

I thank you for your offer, but I tend to take my questions regarding the words that I read to the Father for the purpose of purification. I am happy to share with the group where I have found inconsistency in Pauls writings, and others are welcome to share their understandings on the matter. But I went back and forth with this issue alone in my head for months, and finally took the issue to the Father in prayer. He has defined Pauls role for me and I would not be willing to follow after what anybody would say if it goes against that.

Certainly you understand where I am coming from?

Shalom,

Kathy

[HeHoldsMyHand]

Hi Kathy,

I've also found inconsistencies and have felt very uneasy about Paul since I realised I must observe Torah. I've kept it to myself for months so its so nice to find someone who feels the same way. There are many reasons why I think he is inconsistent, but I don't have my Bible to hand at the moment (or the time) to quote scripture. However, one thing that does make me feel uneasy, is his insistance that he is not lying. Someone who was telling the truth (and God's truth, for that matter), would not have to keep defending themselves so much, don't you think?

Lindsey

[eriqbenel]

I thank you for your offer, but I tend to take my questions regarding the words that I read to the Father for the purpose of purification. I am happy to share with the group where I have found inconsistency in Pauls writings, and others are welcome to share their understandings on the matter. But I went back and forth with this issue alone in my head for months, and finally took the issue to the Father in prayer. He has defined Pauls role for me and I would not be willing to follow after what anybody would say if it goes against that.

Certainly you understand where I am coming from?

Shalom,

Kathy

Shalom Sister Kathy,

I certainly understand where you are coming from and I coomend you. As a child of YHWH, that is certainly the way to go. I too have taken this very matter to the Father, I am confident that I have received answers as well. But would you also agree that YHWH teaches us through others?

Would you also agree that YHWH would not give two of his children opposite and conflicting answers to the same question?

I would never ask anyone to believe "me". I was thinking pretty much along the same lines as you have mentioned. If you would be willing to share what you believe are writings of Sha'ul that are "inconsistancies" with Torah, I will share what my understandings are about those same writings. Let each of us then use the information as each deems fit.

Finally, I will tell you that I truly understand your position. I have been involved in study and contemplation over that issue for YEARS. In prayer, looking into history, archeology, culture, and many other resources in search for the bottom line.

My only desire was to share with you what I have discovered to be true and factual. May YHWH bless you in your studies.

[eriqbenel]

Hi Kathy,

I've also found inconsistencies and have felt very uneasy about Paul since I realised I must observe Torah. I've kept it to myself for months so its so nice to find someone who feels the same way. There are many reasons why I think he is inconsistent, but I don't have my Bible to hand at the moment (or the time) to quote scripture. However, one thing that does make me feel uneasy, is his insistance that he is not lying. Someone who was telling the truth (and g*d's truth, for that matter), would not have to keep defending themselves so much, don't you think?

Lindsey

Shalom Lindsey,

LOL! Yeah, I see what you mean. However, I don't think that notion is as pertinent in that time as it would be today.

Remember that Sha'ul was a man extremely devout to the Pharisee tradition. Extremely well learned in the Torah and extremely infamous for "killing" those who believe in the Messiah BECAUSE of his devotion to Torah.

Having this reputation as a hard-core Pharisee, with a blood-thirst for Messianic believers (who was now a "chief" spokesman FOR the Messianic faith, particularly to those "outside" of the Jewish nation), to suddenly shift gears and begin defending the Messiah and stand against the Sanhedrin (the same group Messiah Himself stood against), required some reassurance.

What if say, Osama Ben Laden suddenly began preaching a kinder, gentler message toward Americans? Standing against the Al-Quieda organization in DEFENSE of American Messianic believers like you and me.
Wouldn't you need some "extra" reassurance that he was sincere? Especially if ALL you had to go by was a "letter"?

If I were Sha'ul, I would want to reassure those who received my letters that I was telling the truth too! See what I mean here?

[HeHoldsMyHand]

Eriq,

EXCELLENT point!!! OK, I'll think about that one! I'll be back with more though........!

Lindsey

[BrotherArnold]

I find no inconsistencies in Paul. There seems to the Inconsistencies even in the Messiah where he says, but I say unto you, and many other things but we must not throw him away either. Even the people of that day thought the Messiah talked against the law but it was because they did not understand all about the law.

Paul had no hidden agenda and would say to the people things like, you know that I coveted no man’s silver gold or apparel but have labored with my own hands for myself and those that were with me and told the preachers that how that so laboring and they ought to work and help the poor. Paul suffered much for the Gospel and was hand chosen by YHWH. He was shipwrecked, a night and day in the deep, beaten three times and left for dead once, persecuted, etc. a well-educated man who counted it all as dung.

Paul was a real soldier and he could not have said to the people things like you know how that I suffered this or that etc, if it were not so.

Brother Arnold

[kathybyers2000]

Greetings fellow believers in the Most High.

Eriq, I wanted to thank you for understanding. I have gleaned plenty of truth from others, however, I do not desire to have any believer rest in a false hope that their sharing with me their understanding on a matter will move me to their understanding. It is here where all debate and contention in the church comes from. So, I read things that my brothers and sisters share (or listen - whatever the case may be) with me where YHWH leads me to read. And then consider those things in meditation with the Father.

That being said, and mutually understood, I am happy to share with you all my understanding of Paul and his role in YHWHstory.

My hope was to have the opportunity yesterday, however, my grandmother passed yesterday and my dad and grandpa did not take it very well until it was finished, so I have been with them the greater part of the last two days and have fallen behind in my daily works. So, with tomorrow being Shabbat and fellowship being necessary, I look forward to getting on here tomorrow to share not only my understanding, but also some of the testimony as it has been delivered to me.

Thanks for your interest, It is becoming my increased pleasure to share where YHWH has lead me, with others - but I have learned to only do this when asked. He has placed me in a submissive role to Him and He has asked me to always wait until asked (others are lead to shout in the streets and perhaps I will be too some day, but He is molding me yet).

I pray that you all have a glorious day this day.

Shalom and agape from your sister in YHWH,

Kathy

[eriqbenel]

Greetings fellow believers in the Most High.

Eriq, I wanted to thank you for understanding. I have gleaned plenty of truth from others, however, I do not desire to have any believer rest in a false hope that their sharing with me their understanding on a matter will move me to their understanding. It is here where all debate and contention in the church comes from. So, I read things that my brothers and sisters share (or listen - whatever the case may be) with me where YHWH leads me to read. And then consider those things in meditation with the Father.

That being said, and mutually understood, I am happy to share with you all my understanding of Paul and his role in YHWHstory.

My hope was to have the opportunity yesterday, however, my grandmother passed yesterday and my dad and grandpa did not take it very well until it was finished, so I have been with them the greater part of the last two days and have fallen behind in my daily works. So, with tomorrow being Shabbat and fellowship being necessary, I look forward to getting on here tomorrow to share not only my understanding, but also some of the testimony as it has been delivered to me.

Thanks for your interest, It is becoming my increased pleasure to share where YHWH has lead me, with others - but I have learned to only do this when asked. He has placed me in a submissive role to Him and He has asked me to always wait until asked (others are lead to shout in the streets and perhaps I will be too some day, but He is molding me yet).

I pray that you all have a glorious day this day.

Shalom and agape from your sister in YHWH,

Kathy

I am so sorry to hear of your grandmother. I pray peace to you and your family.

Whenever you feel up to it. I'm asking. So share what you feel led to share.

[Chayil_Ishshah]

Greetings fellow believers in the Most High.

My hope was to have the opportunity yesterday, however, my grandmother passed yesterday and my dad and grandpa did not take it very well until it was finished, so I have been with them the greater part of the last two days and have fallen behind in my daily works. So, with tomorrow being Shabbat and fellowship being necessary, I look forward to getting on here tomorrow to share not only my understanding, but also some of the testimony as it has been delivered to me.

Kathy,

May the shalom that passes all understanding be blessed upon you by our Abba. My grandmother is 88-years-old and I don't call or visit her as much as I should. We did stop over and see her this week. Yahuah has used your post to remind me not to get caught up in other things and to remember her. She lives alone still and gets around well but I'm sure things can be lonely for her.

I'm sorry to hear of your family's loss.

May Yahuah bless,

~dawn

[kathybyers2000]

Greetings fellow believers in the Most High.

Thank you all for your condolences. We are all well in my family.

I wanted to just touch on the subject matter a little (share a little of me) before all my young ones are up and about for the day.

The first verse I look at is referring to the twelve apostles of the lamb, which only confirms for me that even at the time of the writing of the book of Revelation there were only twelve apostles, and not more, or less.

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This was a spiritual journey to the spiritual heaven as we all know. And this verse tells me that in the eternal heaven there are only twelve apostles of the lamb.

Time to go. Babies are crying.

I look forward to sharing more of what I have been lead to discover later. As was the case last week - I am terribly behind in my daily work (had to have some days with the family). But I so look forward to fellowshipping with all of you.

Thanks for letting me share (not too many people are okay with me sharing my understandings

Shalom,

Kathy